Can you even imagine what it takes to grow your company by 10x this year? Well, you will be blown away when I tell you the private company with the highest level of revenue in the last three years grew at 36,680 percent. The one driving force for their growth is an ownership culture. This means they have created a company where the employees feel a sense of ownership in everything they do. My guest today is David Freedman, Co-Founder of Freestar. Freestar was ranked #1 in the 2019 Inc 5000 list. We talked about the importance of the company’s core values and how vital the ownership culture is to their business. Discover how you can create an ownership culture to drive growth for your company.
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David Freedman: The Transcript
Target Audience: David Freedman is the co-founder of Freestar, a managed service that simplifies the challenges of website monetization to help publishers and e-commerce sites reach their true revenue potential. Since Freestar’s inception in 2015, the company has seen an explosive growth of 36,680 percent for 2018 and earned the number one position on Inc.’s Fastest-Growing Private Companies in 2019.
Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.
Cultures a lot more than a ping pong table or you know free beer. And I think the way we built this kind of culture as well as core values is really organically. And we had. Three core values that we talked about the beginning a little bit knowing the company could even repeat them or really know what they were. And it was one of those reflect a policy look like, if everyone’s having a hard time even saying these or even really living them and how we expecting everyone else to. And that’s when we took a few days a step back and really evaluate the business. And I think that’s been a pretty key turning point when we got real with ourselves and interest try to force this.
[00:00:39].890] – Gene Hammett
Welcome to Growth Think Tank This is the one and only place where you will get insight from the founders and the CEOs. The fastest growing privately held companies. I am the host. My name is Gene Hammond. I hope leaders and their teams navigate the defining moments of their growth. Are you ready to grow?
[00:00:58].230] – Gene Hammett
Growing your company. What does it take. Well you probably think about the product you probably think about the timing you probably think about, you know your special process to make value in the marketplace. Well there’s a one thing that a lot of people don’t think about and it’s really the most important thing and it’s the people. When I talk to fast growth companies I am overjoyed by. Every time I hear when they talk about their fast growth they’re not as impressed with their revenue numbers or even their profit numbers and all the metrics of the business.
[00:01:30].000] – Gene Hammett
They were impressed with the people that are on their journey with them. They are impressed with the people that are taking a feeling of ownership in everything that they do. And that drives the business forward. Now what I’m talking about is companies are really growing fast really do have a core value around ownership. People that feel that sense of ownership. You’ve probably heard me talk about this before whether it be in my articles on a magazine or whether it be on the stages that I go to different conferences and talk about culture being a competitive advantage. But I also talk about the importance of having an ownership culture. Well the number one company on the Inc 2000. 19 list the fastest growing company is Freestar. So today we’re going to talk with David Freedman. David is a co-founder there. They grew at thirty six thousand six hundred eighty percent. They did almost 37 million and they only had just over 20 employees. So think about that for a second. Their level of growth in three years was almost thirty seven thousand percent. I uncovered exactly what it is.
[00:02:36].420] – Gene Hammett
In short it’s about their focus to the core values and how they really live by them. And the details behind that David shared with me some of the details that I’m going to share with you to the interview. But I I bring you this that it all comes back to this sense of ownership. So. Now tune in to David Freedman co-founder of Freestar the number one. INC company for 2019.
[00:03:00].510] – Gene Hammett
Thanks for tuning in here to growth think tank really excited about sharing this with you. And before you run I have done so many interviews in the last few weeks. I have such a exciting time to share with you that those interviews have been organized into the 12 core principles of fast growth companies. So all you have to do we get that is going to GeneHammett.com/worksheet. You can get the 12 Principles and I’ve been able to go in there and find which episodes will align to each individual episode. Will you subscribe to Growth Think Tank you will find exactly what you need so that you can move forward and many of them haven’t been published yet depending on when you’re hearing this but you can you can tune in to the date that means the most.
[00:03:42].990] – Gene Hammett
David how are you.
[00:03:44].370] – David Freedman
I’m doing great. Thanks so much. How about of yourself?
[00:03:46].890] – Gene Hammett
I’m doing fine we’re recording this a couple of days after you were just honored to be the fastest growing company for 2019 of all privately held companies in the United States. How does that feel?
[00:03:59].340] – David Freedman
I’m still riding that high. It was truly an honor is the right word. I mean it was a humbling experience being surrounded by so many incredibly talented entrepreneurs that have all created something out of nothing. And it was just it could not have been a better weekend.
[00:04:15].320] – Gene Hammett
Well to put this in context for everybody listening in. I was looking at some of the numbers you know little over 36 million almost 37 million in revenue in a very short period of time over a three year growth rate that was thirty six thousand six hundred eighty percent. Most people believe that’s not even possible. How would you say that is possible because you were so little in the beginning and then now you’re a huge company?
[00:04:43].570] – David Freedman
Sure. I think it’s really a matter of kind of a combination of staying true to to your values and what you’re trying to accomplish but also not being afraid to pivot and understand that not every decision you’re going to set out making that you think is right is always going to be that right decision. So move quickly and just continue on the path there’s it sounds like it’s this you know while it’s great growth it really is just ups and downs and every entrepreneur is going to tell you the same story. There’s never this just straight line to success.
[00:05:17].390] – Gene Hammett
Well we jumped into the numbers so let’s go back and look at Freestar. What is the industry and what is it you guys do. So the audience can kind of get a feel for it.
[00:05:29].090] – David Freedman
Well this is this is my time to also let my my mother know I think because she stole a little a little confused but ultimately we really simplify the monetization for publishers programmatic advertising and it’s kind of I think most basic form every time you see an ad appear on the Internet an auction is happening in milliseconds and there’s a lot of decisions being made and ultimately we’re coming in and really managing that entire auction process putting pressure on it and driving up the price. So publishers can make as much money as possible and really with as little headache as possible.
[00:06:03].590] – Gene Hammett
Well I love the model because you know I’ve seen so much growth. I think we still have room for growth for all of the Internet. We’re creating content and everyone’s spending hours and hours and hours online. So you’ve got to like the way things are trending for your business.
[00:06:22].980] – David Freedman
Oh it’s only getting stronger each day and I think you know where we come in our motto is publisher first but the entire industry is really driven to support the advertiser and bend over backwards for the advertiser. And that ultimately is hurting the publisher and the people that are actually providing this great content like yourself. And it’s become more and more complex and more and more difficult to really as an individual publisher compete with know Facebook and Googles of the world. So it’s not just that we’re providing this world class tech but we’re also attacking the whole industry with the amount of size and good quality sites. So there’s a lot of value for the advertisers as well.
[00:07:04].560] – Gene Hammett
What’s really impressive if you have this huge growth but you have just what forty five or so employees as of last year?
[00:07:12].810] – David Freedman
correct. As of this year as of last year we were about high 20s.
[00:07:18].460] – Gene Hammett
Wow. That’s even more impressive because you did 20 with 20 employees you had almost 37 million in revenue. A lot of people think that’s not even possible.
[00:07:29].340] – David Freedman
Sure. I think there’s a combination there. Our our business scale is very nicely but also it’s not a quantity game it’s a quality game. And especially in our business and we’ve gone out from day one and really have only hired the best of the best in the industry. So we don’t need you know six people when one person has that knowledge and experience and work ethic and well to kind of help drive this company forward.
[00:07:56].420] – Gene Hammett
I hear that a lot with fast growth companies and I think with this labor sources a lot of leaders go well you know I just need to find someone that can kind of do the work. But you say you hired the best of the best. I would imagine you’re also really looking for a good culture fit. Would you agree it’s both of thos?
[00:08:12].660] – David Freedman
Oh absolutely. I mean you could be the most talented person in the world but also the most cocky and just someone no one even wants to work with. And finding that perfect mix is really difficult. And you know our interview process here is pretty strenuous and we really try to dig in multiple people within the company also are interviewing and giving that feedback to make sure that you know brains is one thing but that that fit is equally as important as well.
[00:08:39].430] – Gene Hammett
We talked a few days ago about the really importance of the core values that drive the company. And I talked to a lot of companies that have grown fast and they have these real attention to core values what not necessarily what name the core values but in a definition sense what are the core values and why are they so important for the growth of your company.
[00:09:04].830] – David Freedman
Well I think the reason they’re so important is just we want also within hiring these brilliant people allow them to essentially be their own entrepreneur make their own right decision. This is not a big corporate company where you need to get approvals. And I think that as long as you’re looking towards the core principles and kind of driving and guiding your decisions around those you’re going to make those right decisions. And when you do make a mistake did you really go about it in the right way. If the answer was yes great then what do we learn from that mistake and how do we continue to just improve on a daily basis.
[00:09:40].240] – Gene Hammett
I don’t know if you know much about my speaking but I speak around the country probably 10 to 12 times a year. The core of my speech is about cultures where they have a sense or a feeling of ownership. And it really is about that entrepreneur spirit. Did you borrow that from somewhere else or is it just what you believe is the way companies should be aligning around their employees and growing fast?
[00:10:03].170] – David Freedman
I’m sure I’ve learned it along the way but I think it’s really also both of my parents are entrepreneurs small clothing stores and the one thing I would always remember them saying to us there’s a big difference between employers and employees. And I think the way you care about a business the way you put that effort in day in and day out is definitely different if you’re an owner versus just clocking in and clocking out. So it was probably just inherently earned throughout that process of wanting that wanting our employees to really have that ownership. So they are treating it as their own. We also give or not give But equity as is distributed to our employees. It’s obviously earned and that’s the other key of this is we’re not just telling you to think like an owner you are an owner. We want you to share the success of the business. And as we do well you do well. It’s truly a team effort.
[00:10:59].920] – Gene Hammett
Well I know it’s easy to be able to put those things in it feels like the right thing to do if you have a company that’s going to grow fast is to actually give us a slice out for others. But you actually probably have a sense of ownership even beyond that. Like the mission of the company the way people are treated they’re valued. Tell us a little bit about the things outside of that that slice of the pie that you’ve given everyone.
[00:11:24].660] – David Freedman
I think it really comes so teamwork in a lot of ways. I mean one of our core values is we not me. And that was a really easy natural core value in the beginning days because Jeff our V.P. a publisher operations that was always his go to line and you know it can mean I think you can interpret that in a lot of different ways but ultimately it’s there’s no problem. That’s someone else’s problem here. There’s also you know when you need a hand don’t be shy to to ask for help. And I think too many times people just try to only stay in their own lane and there’s there’s a fine balance there where you don’t want everyone trying to do everything. Well you also look out of the best ideas are going to come when people in cross departmental or sharing frustrations or successes so we can learn and build upon that.
[00:12:10].240] – Gene Hammett
I love that since you mentioned this maybe we should just spend a little bit of time looking at the values that you guys have attached to and then I want to make sure that every coming. Don’t just borrow David’s values because you feel like they’re good because they’re all good. But you really should come up with your own. That’s fair to say right David.
[00:12:32].230] – David Freedman
Absolutely and I’ll be honest I think we probably fell into that. That tip of that mistake in the beginning where you know you think in the early days when you’re starting up you just need to have these values and you’re trying to figure out that culture you want and culture is a lot more than a ping pong table or you know free beer. And I think the way we’ve built this kind of culture as well as core values is really organically. And we had three core values that we talked about in the beginning a little bit knowing the company could even repeat them or really know what they were.
[00:13:06].670] – David Freedman
And it was one of those reflective moments we look in the mirror like if if everyone’s having a hard time even saying these are we even really living them and how we expect expecting everyone else to. And that’s when we took a few days of step back and really evaluate the business. And I think that’s been a pretty key turning point when we got real with ourselves and didn’t just try to force this.
[00:13:27].460] – Gene Hammett
So we not me is a big one. And you talked about what that means. And I think to me it really is something that could be powerful as you value collaboration across different expertise and different technical skills and marketing skills. Is that about the way it works?
[00:13:47].920] – David Freedman
I’m sorry is the way it works so?
[00:13:50].090] – Gene Hammett
The we versus me we not me. It’s about collaboration and you know everybody participating together.
[00:13:57].360] – David Freedman
Absolutely. And and also not being shy to ask for help. Right. There is no this isn’t an individual sport. It’s truly a team sport. And you know we’re all in this together. And I think sometimes feel people feel like they might have the burden where they need to have every answer or they need to you know pretend that they’re shining brighter than everyone else but everything in the company of the day is really connected and you know our sales team can be world class. But if we don’t have the engineering and the public operations team behind them to deliver on that promise then then your sales are essentially irrelevant as well.
[00:14:32].880] – David Freedman
So I think understanding that the we not me is it just kind of one sense or the other. But to truly be a successful company everybody’s got to be running in that same direction.
[00:14:44].660] – Gene Hammett
All right give us another value that you’ve been talking about for a few minutes.
[00:14:49].130] – David Freedman
We’ll publish your first which is a core value a tagline It’s really kind of the North Star that the entire company rallies around. And that’s as I said before a lot of people really base their businesses on advertising to take advantage of publishers and that’s that’s kind of to me one of the meetings. The other meaning to is. Well let’s always do what is truly in the publisher’s best interests. And that doesn’t always mean it’s going to directly benefit us financially but in the long run it will. Because they know that we’re building that trust and they know they have a true partner at the end of the day that other the other core value and we have three would be above and beyond. And you know that’s that I think to me once again can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. But that’s not just clocking in and clocking out.
[00:15:38].260] – David Freedman
That’s thinking and acting like an owner you’re always going above you want people to not just you know make sure you close the deal let’s say. But are those people really happy or are they going to be a promoter of your business. Are they going to think that you’re the greatest thing ever. And it really isn’t always that much more work. It’s just doing the little things. And you know we always talk about kind of that that restaurant mentality. You could have a really bad experience at a restaurant. The food comes out burn but you can leave that restaurant thinking it’s the greatest place in the air the way people reacted to it after.
[00:16:10].570] – David Freedman
And I think it’s all entrepreneurs. We all know we’re gonna screw things up and we’re gonna do that a lot. But are you doing what what you should be doing when you really look in the mirror and truly going to the extent that you want someone to do for you when you’re on the other side of those situations.
[00:16:25].680] – Gene Hammett
You’d also talked about failure and failure is something that you guys embrace
[00:16:32].360] – David Freedman
[00:16:33].750] – Gene Hammett
Into one of these values more than the other.
[00:16:37].640] – David Freedman
I think that’s a little bit of I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily directly correlated even though it could be in a little bit of that we not me as is it’s not you that failed right because it’s the entire team that has a part of that and there’s a tired team that can learn from that story. I mentioned the other day was Andy who was one of our first employees took a massive pay cut and is just the heartbeat and a lot of ways this company we wouldn’t be where we are without him made a really bad mess up one day and it cost us a quarter of a million dollars.
[00:17:09].710] – David Freedman
And fast forward two years later. We celebrated that failure as crazy as that might sound at our company retreat on his three year anniversary is unfortunately a big Green Bay Packers fan. But besides that he’s a great guy and we actually present him with a Packers jersey with a nickname on the back that he’s been coined of quarter mil and I think the company understanding that even a failure or a mistake at that level is gonna be embraced as long as you were doing it with the right intentions which he obviously was. And if you’re gonna cost a company a quarter of a million dollars and then someone else makes kind of what you would think is a little mistake don’t be shy to raise your hand and say hey I messed up. What happened what went wrong here. We don’t need to dissect every ounce of it. Well let’s just never do it again.
[00:17:58].310] – Commentary
Well wait a minute David just talked about celebrating failure. What do you think about that. Well fast growing companies that I’ve heard and talked to and I work with understand that failure is a part of the journey and they have a different relationship. They’re not avoiding taking risk. They really embrace those and they have employees that are willing to take risk and learn from those failures if you will. And David’s story of sharing how an employee lost two hundred fifty thousand dollars a quarter of a million and how they actually gave him a jersey to celebrate that. I think you should be doing the same thing within your employees the team structure letting failure be OK. Now I’m not saying we should all be taking wild risk but I am saying that we should be ok with taking risks that are calculated that will move the business forward and if we do fail. That we actually learn from those things and actually use it to our advantage. Now back to the interview with David.
[00:18:56].810] – Gene Hammett
I love this and it really is one of the tenets of having an ownership culture so whether you knew it or not I mean it really does say a lot about your company by embracing that and celebrating those kind of failures when you think about reinforcing the failures because three of them is not that much. I’ve seen companies that have in my opinion way too many of these values that no one knows what they are and no one can repeat them. But what do you do to reinforce it and make sure people stay aligned around the values day in and day out.
[00:19:32].930] – David Freedman
Oh I think it’s now become kind of part of that culture that I think in the early days it’s when you know when people come to you with a question instead of giving them the answer will you know what is publisher first. And then you know within it seems like pretty quickly even though might not have been that quick you start hearing someone say something at a meeting or an idea and somehow it’s gone. What does that publisher first. And I think as long as you’re going back to those values and kind of you know educate it’s questioning and pointing them in the right direction where they can they can fail sometimes and that failure is going to be OK.
[00:20:08].470] – David Freedman
But is it guiding your decisions are you truly going home again and saying hey I went above and beyond today I didn’t clock in and clock out but I was really like I stayed late or I was helping people on other teams get a job done that I know they needed they just looked down today I was going to have an off day. And I definitely have them and it’s great when you know you have a team truly with you that’s going to pick you up and you should be doing the same for everyone else in your company as well.
[00:20:35].590] – Gene Hammett
Do you recognize people in special ways for following the advice so far for us.
[00:20:42].430] – David Freedman
We do a monthly all hands were based here in Phoenix Arizona. I don’t have an office in New York and L.A. but also other remote employees throughout the country. And I think part of a part of this culture we’ve built is is making sure that even though people might be remote they don’t feel remote and at our monthly all hands we’re going through our core metrics our numbers and a lot of the things that make the business beat from a high level. But at the end we’re always celebrating what we what we call just people living our values and calling out and each of the Veeps are typically calling out the people on their team or people even on other teams that have helped them out and have really just lived the core value without them knowing. And then we follow that off with with kind of honoring our employee of the month as well every month.
[00:21:31].050] – Gene Hammett
Is there an award for that?
[00:21:33].230] – David Freedman
There is. There’s a trophy that’s a nice little prideful thing to have on your desk and then at the end of the year at our holiday party we wind up doing some some pretty nice presents and raffles based upon everyone that has been named either an employee of the month and also in kind of living the living our values section.
[00:21:50].450] – Gene Hammett
Love that. And I’m sure everyone gets it has fun with it as well.
[00:21:56].670] – David Freedman
Absolutely. And even with our employer the month we have a wall here in Phoenix and the pictures maybe aren’t very traditional they’re not your normal headshot it’s really we want we’re showcasing the people and who they really are and kind of their personalities and whether that’s branded in kind of a half saints and Spurs jersey or you know at the other end you have carry and kind of her play right and she’s into the theater world and maybe a Shakespeare had on hers and Brian who’s one of our really talented engineers who’s also a magician. So really funny great photos and I get a kick out of it as well.
[00:22:35].720] – Gene Hammett
Now I want to wrap this up with one big question here and I don’t want to lead you in any specific way but I do recognize that one of your core values is published your first as a company but as a leader David if I asked you would if you grew fast what’s more important for you as the leader your employees or your customers?
[00:22:58].690] – David Freedman
Without a doubt it’s the employees because we have no customers without the employees and the staff. This would be a very scary place if I was all alone here. And so those customers would be leaving very quickly so making sure that you’re building a culture where people are actually excited to come to work and I’ll leave you kind of with one of my favorite stories I was really a pretty amazing moment but someone that I’ve tried to bring onto our team for two and a half years and continue to tell me no no no no no. Finally broke and joined our team and he sent an email to myself. Our president and a couple of the other vice presidents and said hey I think a lot of times people can kind of overlook what you know the culture and really how amazing work is because you’re going to have ups and you’re going to have downs but what you guys have done is is truly amazing.
[00:23:52].730] – David Freedman
And he said I realized this when I had lunch today with some former ex co-workers and the first question they asked me was is the grass really greener. And he started to laugh and he just said absolutely. And he’s like the more I sat through that lunch and hearing them complain about just a lot of the politics within their company versus me truly coming in being excited come to work every day. Like I just wanted to let you guys know. And that was to me a super proud moment. And I think you know the business side of it is kind of the scorecard but making sure you’re delivering to your customers. And also obviously most important your employees is how you’re going to be successful in the long run.
[00:24:31].230] – Commentary
Now David talked about team first. I’ve got to jump in here. That is really the core of my research in everything that I’ve seen fast growth companies. Those leaders are willing to put their team first. People feel connected to the work that they want to take care of the customers and the company grows because of that. Are you willing to put team first? Are you willing to create the kind of culture that puts team first so that your team can put the customer first. David is a perfect example of this and why it’s so important. His words is fiber remember we’re absolutely. Team first. He puts employees before everything else in the business and that’s the reason why he’s grown and I believe that’s the reason why the business will continue to grow.
[00:25:18].050] – Gene Hammett
Well you get ACS all around for delivering value for your customers and for the growth of the company. And I think having a great place to work is really a part of that puzzle. I really have one more question for you as you do think about this other leaders out there that want their companies to grow. Maybe they’re seeing some frustration. They actually don’t put that much attention on the core values. What would you say to that leader about how they think about core values how they use them from your perspective.
[00:25:53].380] – David Freedman
I think everyone’s kind of there needs to do it their own way. And you know I’m obviously honored to share some of my experiences with you but I don’t think there’s a playbook and I think it’s it’s really important for people to figure that out on their own. And the core values are also are relevant if you don’t believe them. And if you’re not going to live them every day so if you’re just reciting them because that’s what you’re supposed to do just don’t waste that time. There’s better things you could be doing then.
[00:26:19].930] – David Freedman
But you know this has been my my court call my blueprint but that thing gets changed every day and it’s just more of the type of mentality of I’ll figure out as I go and make plenty of mistakes along the way. But obviously happened having cost us drastically and I think we’ve done a lot of really good things and all the way to just bringing in bringing in talent and listening to them. It’s also I think a huge waste if you have super talented people but you act like you know everything. And I learn as much from my employees as hopefully they’re learning from me.
[00:26:49].450] – David Freedman
And I think that’s really been the key to the success here is an open environment. Nobody’s above any one you might report to someone but the other day anyone can speak to anyone in this company. Obviously in a respectful way but don’t be shy and don’t bite your tongue. And I’ve told my sales team a lot. If you’re agreeing with me 100 percent of the time we probably have a big issue and I want to be challenged. I want to be called out if you disagree and let’s have conversations around that.
[00:27:15].540] – Gene Hammett
Well I want to leave this because Stacy your sister pulled me to the side and we were talking about this when everybody was dancing literally in the midst of all of this. We’re having so much fun at the conference but she goes. The reason why David is so successful in the company so successful is for two reasons because he’s humble and he has a sense of humanity that I’ve never seen inside of leadership before. So I know you’re proud of her but I just want to share that those words of wisdom from your own sister.
[00:27:45].610] – David Freedman
Well thank you very much. It’s super kind my. My parents my sister my heart as you probably heard me speak about the Gallo a little bit. But she she’s helped me out so much along the way especially in the early days. She’s in the digital advertising agency as well and helped open a lot of doors and I’m super lucky to have her it’s such a great friend and one of my biggest fans.
[00:28:07].630] – Gene Hammett
Well thanks for being here and Growth Think Tank.
[00:28:10].610] – David Freedman
So thank you so much.
[00:28:12].460] – Gene Hammett
Wow what a great interview. One thing I really loved about this was I asked him my key question at the end and he said that a leader should always put their employees first putting team first is everything to fast growth companies. Now nine out of 10 and I’ve talked to over 430 different companies where they will say that their employees are the most important piece to their business. It’s not their customers. So employee first is such a driving force inside of businesses that David said it and he’s the fastest growing company of the 2019 Inc list.
[00:28:48].070] – Gene Hammett
Now what do you do with this interview. Hopefully it’s inspired you to get more clear about your values how do you live by them how do you truly drive success. I would love to help you through that process one of the things I do is help fast growth companies continue to accelerate by getting back to the fundamentals by shifting their evolution and evolving as leaders. Now I’m so excited about the work I do. I create all this content for you if you’re on the fence if you’re just a little bit curious about what it would take for you to work with me. And I want you to reach out to me [email protected].
[00:29:23].440] – Gene Hammett
Don’t worry about if I’m busy or if you can afford me. I love to give. If there’s something I can give you for free. I will point you directly to it. If it’s my book I’ll give you my book for free if I need to but if you really want some deep work and want someone to help you give you the insight you need to grow your business fast then I would love to be in your corner your guide and so to speak. So make sure you reach out to GeneHammett.com. As always lead with courage. I’ll see you next time.
Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.
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If you want more from us check out more interviews: