If the challenges of 2020 have taught us anything, it has certainly taught us the importance of being adaptable. Inside of our companies, we have had to create new ways to work and connect with each other. Today we are looking at the keys to having a flexible culture. Our guest is Ryan Kohler, CEO at ApplicantPro. Inc Magazine ranked ApplicantPro #4225 on the 2020 Inc 5000 list who and made the Inc list seven consecutive times. Ryan gives you the elements of a flexible culture. He dives into the real challenges we face as leaders that want to create teams that feel connected. Discover the strategies that make a flexible culture and learn what to avoid too.
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Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.
When COVID started, and suddenly the kids were home, I assumed this was pretty normal. For us, this was going to be like summertime, which we go through. And there’s like we see a shift in our business and how things are working, when summer comes that the moms start working from home a little bit more, etc, etc. So I assumed that this would just be a long gated summer. But it’s not because the kids weren’t just home, the moms were also being their teacher’s time. And so that’s a little different when you’re at home and trying to make sure your kids aren’t flunking out of school, then if you’re at home and just try and keep your kids from being on a device all day long. So there is a different level of upper wireman for I think clearly like the females in this world are much more adept at it. They know how to juggle this stuff as us guys start working from home with kids around we’re like all is lost. We don’t know how to deal with that level of, constant disruption. But so yeah, it’s going to be interesting to see how that works. And I don’t think most businesses have really taken into consideration. Yes, they’re working at home. And yes, there may be people around but there’s a difference between your kids being around, and you being kind of this partner in their education.
Welcome to Growth Think Tank. This is the one and only place where you will get insight from the founders and the CEOs of the fastest-growing privately held companies. I am the host. My name is Gene Hammett. I hope leaders and their teams navigate the defining moments of their growth. Are you ready to grow?
Gene Hammett [1:29]
When you think about your employees, you think about how flexible you must be to attract the top talent. When you think about flexibility, do you kind of put up a wall and say, you know, we’re as flexible as we need to be. But what if I challenged you to go to think about that differently? What if I challenge you to think about flexibility is how flexible Could you be in order to attract talent and for them to play at their absolute best. And what we’re going to talk about today is the value of a flexible culture. And when you think about leadership, after COVID-19. And after all these things are going on, people want more flexibility, they want to work at home a little bit more. I’m recording this in June. And so it’s going to come out by my guest best guest is in November. And when I think about what it will be like in the future, we will have a much more need for a flexible work arrangement, we will have a need to attract this and I think talented people will desire a lot more flexibility than we’ve given them. Today we talked about the value of a flexible culture.
Gene Hammett [2:34]
Our guest today is Ryan Kohler, he is the founder of ApplicantPro, they were a seven Time Inc list winner, they’ve gotten many different numbers, I won’t go through all the numbers, but seven times in the list consistently, because they have a great place for people to work. And they’ve really figured out this model of flexible work that has just worked for them. We go through some of the things like you know, one of the drivers, one of the benefits of your, your work, and so that you understand what does it take for you to provide the level of flexibility that your employees want. We also look at some of the other elements of flexibility and talking about what kind of leadership gets in the way of scaling your company. Today, Ryan shares all of those insights in the interview. Now, if you haven’t already checked out the training on how to lead in this new economy, how to lead your people out of recession, make sure you go to genehammett.com/training, you will get down get the access to that immediately. It’s the three mistakes that you must fix. And you can fix them and address them inside this. It’s genehammett.com/training. You know, when you think about leadership, think about Growth Think Tank. Now here’s the interview with Ryan.
Gene Hammett [3:47]
Hey, Ryan, how are you?
Ryan Kohler [3:48]
Great. How are you doing man?
Ryan Kohler [3:49]
Fantastic. excited to talk to you about leadership and culture in a fast-growth environment fast-growth company. Tell us a little bit about ApplicantPro.
Ryan Kohler [3:58]
Sure. So ApplicantPro is a hiring software platform. We’ve been around for Gosh, 15 years now, which is a long time in the tech world, like a grandpa for a tech founder to be in a company that long. But yeah, so we provide mostly just SMB, mostly a small midsize company. So we’re targeting, you know, like 20 employees up to a couple thousand. And generally, companies that do a lot of hiring. So either they have a lot of turnovers, or they’re growing, but that puts us in you know, and they tend to have a lot of entry to mid-level, you know, type talent, so anywhere from restaurants and hotels up to credit unions or, you know, cities and counties or you know anybody like that they tend to hire you to know, a similar demographic. Few tech companies here and there. But yeah, usually we’re sitting that maybe service-based or construction based or something like that.
Ryan Kohler [4:46]
I wouldn’t give you a chance to flex the muscles of hiring the right people. I think that you know, this has been recorded after COVID has had a major impact. We’re still trying to digging out of it. They won’t go live until close to November which is just part of The process here, but Ryan, what are your best tips for hiring talented people?
Ryan Kohler [5:05]
You know. So it’s actually surprisingly easy. If you change your paradigm, this is all a paradigm issue. And most of that comes because the core person managing hiring in big organizations would be an HR person, and bless their hearts. They tend to their job is this weird, two brains job where a lot of their job is very process and compliance and making sure we don’t get sued for payroll benefits, that kind of thing, was more of like, almost like an accounting function. Right. And you know, what accountants are like, they’re very risk-averse. They’re very process-driven, they protect the status quo because that is the goal of compliance is to ensure the status quo, you switch over to hiring and hiring isn’t like that there. There are compliance parts to hiring, but the actual like, can we find attractive, select great people. That’s a sales and marketing job. But because I mean, imagine if the average business took their accountant and have them help with marketing, maybe it wouldn’t.
Ryan Kohler [6:04]
Really, it’s what most organizations, especially higher ones, you know, your bigger ones do, which kind of means that all their approaches, and the way that they go about doing it, the way they view hiring kind of just kind of trickles down into smaller companies. And so if you shift this one paradigm, which is just marketing like hiring is just marketing, that means that we have a target audience, we need to get to know them, we need to figure out what makes them tick and what they want. I mean, just marketing one on one, right, like, fears and frustrations, wants and aspirations What do these people want? And how do we segment those markets into groups of people? And then we need to write an ad that makes them excited about buying or applying, right? And that right there, amazingly enough, is missed by 99% of companies. And even if I show up and tell them, they’re still like, no, like, that’s just not how it works.
Ryan Kohler [6:57]
So you know, to us, to me, it’s just marketing. That’s all this is, it’s just marketing, which means every technique, everything I do in marketing, I can use in hiring, but surprisingly, almost nobody copies because they just they don’t know one of the strangest things is just imagine, as a marketer, you show up to work every day, and you say, I can change the outcome, I can come up with a better product, I can come up with a better ad, I can make it easier to get a lead, I can make it more fun, more engaging, or whatever. And the outcome will shift based on what I’m doing. Almost nobody in hiring believes that what they do, will change the number or quality of applicants they receive, they just believe that we have a job. And there are people out there that apply. And if they don’t, then they’re not out there yet. They’re recruiting basically right now, I just did a big study from indeed. And basically, the average company is getting 1% 1% of the people actually search and have their ad show up in the results. 1% of those people actually end up applying. So 99% of people who search for a sales job in Utah, and had the ads show up there at 99%, either don’t click on the ad or they click on the ad don’t apply. You’re working with 1%. So the data says there’s a whole lot of potential for you to adjust and shift to get more applicants or better applicants or whatever. But just the paradigm, they don’t believe that. And so that one simple thing completely shifts everything if you actually believe the change in your aggregate different.
Gene Hammett [8:25]
Well, I appreciate you sharing that with us, Ryan, I want to go through, I was looking back over the company and the research that you guys did seven times in a row, you’ve made the Inc list. And that doesn’t happen by chance. And no, it’s not probably the most important thing for you to grow fast. You probably have many other things you’re looking at, but we were talking about the importance of having the right culture and frankly, a little bit of flexibility and being unique, what is a flexible culture to you.
Ryan Kohler [8:55]
So again, I think it’s as an employer, you have to buffer the wants and needs of your employees with the wants and needs of your customers. And that’s really what you’re acting as this buffer in the middle, right? You want to know, extreme flexibility, it for your employees might actually harm your customer base. So you can’t do that. Right if all your employees wanted to work in the middle of the night, but your customers were b2b customers who work during the day, that would be a problem. And for us, you know, for us flexibility means being able to find that buffer that if an employee takes and lists out their top 10 most important themes, the top three or four that we should be able to provide, and maybe the next three or four, we should be able to provide some of the time but they’re going to have to give up the bottom group in exchange for the top group. So if an employee what and in theory, I should be able to buffer even employees against each other meaning, meaning one person’s top three.
Ryan Kohler [9:47]
So for instance, I have one of the unique things is we’re like 80% female, mostly mom, which for a tech company is just outrageous, right? And if you talk to a normal tech founder, you might say, Oh yeah, we have a bunch of females but They support people. I mean, my CRM is a female, my CFO is a female, like my half my product managers are females, like, the only thing where I’m really presented, an underrepresented would be in tech from a programmer standpoint because that’s like the unicorn. And even there, I think I’ve got two or three females that are programmers. But the rest of the company from top to bottom is heavily female. So if you think about the flexibility that a mom or working mom wants, even working moms want different flexibility, some want to be home to get their kids off school, and some want to be home when their kids come home from school. So in theory, I could buffer those two ones against each other by a kind of, you know, search, sorting the deck, right, like linking up the right people in the right flows, so that everybody gets again, some of what they want. But the customer still gets support available from eight to six. And so really, you know, in my world is about buffering is about, can I understand what they want? Can I give them, you know, the most important thing?
Hold on for a second, Ryan just talked about the need to analyze the needs between customers and employees, buffering the wants and needs. It’s a great exercise if you sat back and thought about it with your team to talk about what does the customers expect of us? And what do our employees expect of us, what you’ll find is, there’s not a whole lot of overlap. employees want flexibility per today’s interview, but customers want you to be available to them. And so you’ve got to figure out what those key things are. And you’re going to figure out where you have to address it through either technology automation to a higher level of service, because you want to make sure that you’re keeping both of these in mind, not just serving customers, not just serving employees, please keep that in mind as you go about your day, looking at your team and looking at what the team needs to deliver the level of service your customers desire. Back to the interview with Ryan.
Gene Hammett [11:54]
Now, you made that comment about, you know, listing out the 10 things they want, is that something you’ve actually done with people that are hiring within your company?
Ryan Kohler [12:02]
Yeah, so we do we actually did with the whole company. And the reason why it’s it’s kind of like, you know, I have kids, mostly, you know, if you’ve got kids, you know, and you think about a Christmas time, your kids put together a Christmas list, and kids are not very good at prioritizing, right? So they bring you their Christmas lists, and they’re like, I want 100 things or I want 10 things you’re like, well, I don’t have the budget to give you 10 things. So I’m going to need you to do number one is prioritize it based on what you want. And number two has like kind of an adult conversation about how there are trade-offs. Right? There are trade offs, what I’m providing here.
Ryan Kohler [12:34]
So we actually did that with our employees. And what you find is that different people have different priorities. And you find that even the priorities shift as they go along, right, you’ve got a working mom who works to make some extra money, so the family can go on vacation, you know, so her list is going to be different. Three years later, she goes through a divorce, and now she’s the primary wage earner for her family, or maybe your husband gets sick or gets laid off, he got a lift, suddenly just that list changes. Now flexibility of schedule is lower down the list than earning potential because she needs to make more money. And so it’s the easiest way I’ve found to be able to have this kind of adult conversation to make sure and it has come up all the time, every time that employee comes to you and you start looking at giving them you know, moving them up in the organization or moving them into a different role or whatever, you have to pull that list back out. And like where’s this list?
Ryan Kohler [13:24]
And today? Like, what are your trade-offs? Because there’s going to be trade-offs you want unlimited flexibility on when you work well that you can’t be a salesperson because you need to be able to do demos when the customer wants it. But there might be a data entry job you could do. Because you could do that data entry at night. And so yeah, it’s by far, you know, we probably don’t do it enough. But really, in the best world scenario, I would actually have somebody create that list during an interview before I even hired them just so that we can see, where are you going to fit? And how, how are we going to buffer your list against the other five people on your team, because you can’t all have the same list. Unless this job is optimally fit for those requirements. And
Gene Hammett [14:08]
I like that and I figured with applicant pro maybe that was part of your software and solution. But I guess…
Ryan Kohler [14:15]
So this is like go it goes back to the target audience for our target audience especially say above 100 employees is heavily HR person. And so while we’re progressive, our clients are not as progressive as we are. When we get smaller like we’re now doing a lot more small business hiring where we actually do we write the ads and do the posting and do the initial screening for them. And we’re dealing with a business owner instead of an HR person. This is owners tend to be more risk, more risk-takers, right? Their opener, I mean, clearly, if you start a business, you better be open to risk or I don’t know what you’re doing. That’s crazy, right? And so they tend to be able to or be willing to do a little more edgier stuff with their teams and with their jobs and that kind of stuff. Whereas once you get above 100 the likelihood of having somebody who’s progressive, maybe at two tech companies wouldn’t be like that. But your core credit unions, they’re not exactly. bastions for progressive approach hiring right?
Ryan Kohler [15:09]
So Ryan, to finish off this topic I’d love for you if you can buy memory, what are the top three drivers that people are desire? Do they want to work at your company?
Ryan Kohler [15:19]
Oh, man. So flexibility is going to be a big one. But flexibility is that that’s too vague of a word, right? So usually flexibility is going to boil down to deciding what times I start and finish work. That’s a huge one, right? Where I’m actually working, am I at home? Am I in the office? Or am I some mix of those two? And the ability to control like, if you get deeper from there, it’s controlling even my schedules within the day to have the ability to take two hours off to run to the school at lunchtime or something like that. So for us, you know, we just stumbled on it. But for us, you know, proximity is probably another one. But these are very specific to a working mom and demographic life. And moms want to know, they don’t need to be able to get home, they’ll go home very often to take care of their kids, they need to know they could get to them. So if it’s a 20-minute commute, a 30-minute commute, that doesn’t work, five-minute commute. You know, if your kid got sick at school, you could get to them being able to set beginning and end times of the day, and potentially even days of the week, or normally or to be able to take your laptop home and go finish. Those are pretty core solid flexibility concepts. That normally is what people are coming to us for.
Ryan Kohler [16:31]
Now, I don’t know what they’re doing where you are in Utah. I know in Georgia, we have been doing some surveys on what will school look like next year for kind of preschool or that primary school, middle school, a high school for high school or looking at some hybrid systems. Have you seen that data coming through and the flexibility that might require?
Ryan Kohler [16:53]
I haven’t seen it, but I haven’t seen it. But definitely like when COVID started, and suddenly the kids were home, I assume this was pretty normal. For us, this was going to be like summertime, which we go through and there’s like we see a shift in our business and how things are working. When summer comes that the moms start working from home a little bit more, etc, etc. So I assumed that this would just be elongated summer. But it’s not because the kids weren’t just home, the moms were also being their teacher half the time. Yeah. And so that’s a little different when you’re at home and trying to make sure your kids aren’t flunking out of school. And then if you’re at home and just try and keep your kids from being on a device all day long. So there is a different level of requirement for I think clearly like the females in this world are much more adept at it. They know how to juggle this stuff as us guys start working from home with kids around we’re like all is lost. You don’t know how to deal with that level of, constant disruption. But so yeah, it’s going to be interesting to see how that works. And I don’t think most businesses have really taken into consideration. Yes, they’re working at home. And yes, there may be people around but there’s a difference between your kids being around and you being kind of this partner in their education. And it’s a different level of engagement of different levels of mental strain. That is there that I don’t think most business owners have taken into account.
Ryan Kohler [18:19]
Ryan, as a leader of a growing company been around since 2006. You’ve built out this team, you’ve had to you’ve been brace working from home for quite a long time. What are some of the things that you could share with those leaders about that flexibility of working from home that maybe they’re just not aware of I know a few things that come to mind, but I want to kinds of see where you go with it?
Ryan Kohler [18:43]
You know, I think the biggest thing right off the bat is you have to unhinge time. And I think this is a core, you know, at the end of the day just even why a lot of business owners have some mental blocks around females in the workforce even and why they may not have it is you have to unhinge time spent from the activity performed or value generated this idea that somehow working eight hours will provide you eight hours worth of value, and six hours, therefore, offers you know, 25% less value that is simply not true. That’s not how or that that working regular time somehow adds value or that somehow like somebody who works like starts at exactly eight every day. And somehow that eight 830 time slot is so valuable to have that you couldn’t possibly assume that somebody wanted to start a little later.
Ryan Kohler [19:33]
And so what we’ve always found is that and this is almost like when you switch somebody from hourly to salary, you have to get this concept in your head of what matters is I’m paying them for the value they’re generating, not the time they because legally you can’t demand them work certain hours on salary. But that really is it that I think most managers were struggling with is how do I know? How do I know that my employees are working the right amount For what we’re compensating them on when I couldn’t see that they showed up and see that they stayed at their desk and see those things, you have to shift instead to be able to say, can we measure the value. And if we can measure their value, then quit worrying about the fact they started at 846. Because I can tell you from a salary standpoint, I’ve been going to pull the data, I’ve been looking for data points on it. I know for a fact that my female salaried employees actually work more hours than my male salaried employees. And they just don’t do it. Like, when a guy works a little bit extra, he stays late at work on my team at 930. At night, it fires back into like full steam.
Ryan Kohler [20:40]
Once the kids have gone to bed, you have this gap of time from 930 to midnight, that all of a sudden, a whole lot of work gets done. And that’s not the normal flow. For your average male salaried, I’m going to work late tonight, they stay longer at the end of the day, kind of a theme. And so again, you have to be able to figure out how can I measure the value being generated by my employees, the value, not the hour’s work. And that is I think, why we put off work from home for so long as managers, let’s just be honest, and say it’s laziness, that the managers didn’t want to evolve and say, this is going to be harder for me to see that they’re working for me to quantify that they’re working for me to ensure that they’re doing it right. It’s so much easier for me to walk out of my office and see them there. So I as a manager, I’m going to have to evolve. But I started my very first employee as a part-time Mom, I remember I see her like once a year, for the first five years, like, sometimes I go two years without actually physically seeing her face or talking to her on the phone. And it was all chat and email. I didn’t know when she worked. I didn’t care when she worked, I had a gut feel for the value she was generating. And that’s all that matters. But that’s not normal. And so the managers and entrepreneurs have to evolve from that.
Do you catch when Ryan talked about the need to look at the value or the time of your employees? Have you ever caught yourself wondering, are they spending enough time? Here’s the real question, are they creating enough value for what they’re putting in into a given day or week. Now, when you think about value, instead of time, you really get to shift a lot of the thinking around this because you don’t really want them to work, no 12 hours you want them to create as much value is possible for the organization moves their project forward, crease value for the customer service experience, or for the sales experience, you want them to increase value, and you don’t want to count their time doing it. Now, a lot of people get this confused. They feel like they go hand in hand. But there’s really not much correlation between how much time someone works, and how much value they can create. So think about that, as you think about leadership and growing your business. Back to Ryan.
Gene Hammett [22:52]
How have you been able to keep the kind of culture that keeps the team aligned together through these flexible work arrangements?
Ryan Kohler [23:00]
I think that’s actually probably the harder part is, is making sure they know they’re still on a team, even for me, like I was going to trade shows and I was up on stage talking. And I was running into my clients all the time. And I might work from home when I got done traveling. But I show up in an office once or twice a week. And while like we’re on zoom right now, and I can see your face. I don’t think that my brain registers the same concept seems somebody spaces it does feeling their energy and being in a room with another human. And so even for us being able to take and say yes, your remote, but we need to get you together. Like we need to have a party in your backyard. Or we’ve been doing that with our departments like hey, small groups get together at a park or get together in somebody’s backyard get together and you know, a parking lot pop your trunks open but make sure that you’re there is something that is different about being in proximity to another human once in a while that you don’t get through Zoomer video.
Ryan Kohler [23:57]
And so clearly, you know, firing up zoom is better than not. But you have to still make sure that they feel a connection with the team and connection with you know, your customer, even if you suddenly stopped I haven’t seen a customer. I don’t think I’ve seen a customer in three months. And I’ll be honest, I was running into hundreds every month just going to trade shows. I mean, there is a feeling of disconnection that has to be overcome, to ensure that they still feel like they’re part of a team. And there’s plenty of ways you can still get around with video. I know some of the young people in my network have done paint nights and all kinds of stuff via zoom. And so you still try to build some of that we’re in it together. Kind of a theme. But um, yeah, I think and I think that’s going to be our new normal. How do we create you know, as a year even the people before COVID. If you were full remote, they do quarterly retreats or work for meetups or just some way to get humans in the same room with each other to feel each other’s energy and reconnect.
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Gene Hammett [25:12]
Totally agree with that. Ryan, I really appreciate you sharing with us some of your experience of fast growth leadership. One last question for you, you know, what is, uh, you know, something you carried into leadership that you’ve had to let go of recently that that wasn’t serving you any longer as the company continued to grow.
Ryan Kohler [25:30]
And, you know, as a, so I’m a bootstrapped solo founder, nontech. So I’m not a programmer. I’m a product manager, I don’t code and, and for a long time, it was kind of in and I hired all of these, these part-timers, most of my employees have never done their job before coming to me, they’ve never even been in the tech world before most of them except for my programmers. And so while that is awesome to provide these opportunities for people to kind of level up their career path outside where they would normally be. There’s also a whole lot of stuff that comes with that, especially if you’re, you know, a super-fast tech problem solver. That’s like he asked Brian, the question, asked Brian, what he should do here, ask Brian his opinion. And that serves your purpose for a period of time until you get to a certain scale. And when you get to a certain scale, then suddenly, I like to say that I have to get I have to like put a bag over my head and Tie my hands behind my back and solve the problem.
Ryan Kohler [26:26]
So you know, I have to be able to create processes and frameworks and approaches that I can teach and let them learn to do it on their own without full confidence in making decisions. Because while it feels awesome to be the genius, and the word genius is a huge negative, it implies that somebody else can’t do what you’re doing. And so that, especially over the last few years has really been as we’ve got bigger and bigger, we’re 130 employees, hundred and 40 employees, they can’t be making the decisions. I can’t be the person. And so while it have to learn to let go and trust that that will work. But I also have to be able to teach decision making problem-solving approaches like frameworks, and we call them to play. So it’s like I have to be able to teach the right play to run off how do you pick the right plane?
Ryan Kohler [27:16]
How do you run the play, because I can’t be the one that’s there all the time? And that for an entrepreneur that really is where the founders who scale and those that stagnate that really is the divider is what happens when and you have these points where you like lands when you hire somebody to do a job without you there. And that’s a big deal. What happens when you hire somebody to make decisions without you even knowing that’s a big deal. What happens when you hire managers to hire and fire people, without you being involved? Those are big hurdles to overcome, that require a level of trust in your people and, and trust that you’ll figure it out or that you can fix it. And trust honestly, that you’ve been a good leader that you’ve taught and trained and developed the right people. Because otherwise, you lose sleep at night. And you don’t trust your people. And you second guess them and you and that’s probably the last two years, very, very difficult. I’ll be the first to admit extremely difficult for me not to jump in, roll up my sleeves, get my hands dirty, go solve the problem. And realize that I’m hurting the team not helping and it’s extremely difficult. And I think that’s where a lot of founders get stuck.
Gene Hammett [28:26]
And you’re not alone. I hear this all the time. I’m smiling, as you can see on the video that it’s something that I talk about a lot on this podcast, but also in my work with founders and just get them to get the reality of it. of this. So Ryan, thanks for being here and sharing your wisdom.
Ryan Kohler [28:45]
For sure. Thanks for having me.
Gene Hammett [28:46]
Another great episode here on the Growth Think Tank podcast. I love talking to founders about what they realize over time, what they could share back with people like you that want to be more effective leaders that want to create a culture of flexibility is just part of that. We’ve been looking at all of the factors, make sure you download the principles, we put down the 12 principles of fast-growth companies just go to genehammett.com/principles. When you think about your job as a leader, you’ve got to go through some defining moments, you’ve got to uplevel many times so that your team can continue to uplevel you can’t stay stagnant and expect your team to grow. All that being said, if you have any questions about your own leadership, the defining moments that you’re facing and going through I’d love to help you get clear about that. Make sure you reach out to me at [email protected]. As always, when you think of leadership think of Growth Think Tank and lead with courage.
Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.
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